Mochabot log - CommonJS IRC channel: #commonjs on irc.freenode.net

2010-01-22:

[0:00] <Garrick> hey guys
[0:01] <Garrick> is there a benchmark representing the performance between ssjs vs say... PHP?
[0:06] <tlrobinson> Garrick: "ssjs" is an abstract term.
[0:06] <tlrobinson> you could benchmark against specific implementations
[0:07] <tlrobinson> and i'm sure there's a huge range in performance
[0:07] <cpojer> I would suppose that if its purely about performance then it should be tested with nodejs
[0:08] <Garrick> checking
[3:39] <Dantman> Ugh, something is wrong with my NativeBlob and IdScriptableObject's hasInstance
[4:44] * Dantman wonders why (new Blob).__proto__ === Blob.prototype but for some reason (new Blob) instanceof Blob is false.
[4:44] <Dantman> Yet (new Blob) instanceof Object is true
[4:44] <Dantman> tlrobinson, Ever done much with IdScriptableObjects?
[4:45] <tlrobinson> Dantman: i don't think so
[4:47] <Dantman> Ah screw it... I'll try and override hasInstance... I was going to do that to make something else work anyways...
[4:50] <Dantman> Tch, overriding that doesn't change anything/
[4:52] <Dantman> Heh, though I did find a way to do something fun...
[7:34] <ondras> Wes-: let me please know when you are avail
[8:31] <oberhamsi> commonjs.org site is mostly broken for me.. (irc log too so i can't check if this already came up :)
[8:31] <oberhamsi> i meant most links lead to blank pages
[8:32] <oberhamsi> ah log is just slow
[8:32] <oberhamsi> i'm just saying cause someone put a link on reddit/js
[8:44] <aho> r/js 404s
[8:44] <aho> r/javascript works though
[8:45] <oberhamsi> sorry i was shortcutting
[14:54] <ashb> hmmm - system.args
[14:54] <ashb> should it contain the script name or not
[15:04] <ondras> ashb: imho yes
[15:04] <ashb> i'm off the two minds
[15:04] <MisterN> ashb: if not specified, look at how flusspferd and narwhal do it, and if there's a discrepancy, i guess we must discuss it
[15:05] <ashb> the reason i wask tas 1) require.main has that info another way, and 2) processing command line args means you have to do args.slice( 1 ) or similar
[15:05] <ashb> *i ask was
[15:06] <dmachi> ashb: but most arguments implmentations in languages have args[0] == source file dont' they?
[15:06] <ashb> not sure
[15:06] <dmachi> in my experience thats the case
[15:06] <ashb> you might be right - its probably the avenue of least surpise
[15:06] <Wes-> are you talking about require("system").arguments[0]?
[15:06] <ashb> Wes-: yeah
[15:06] <Wes-> Doesn't the spec say that it does?
[15:06] <ashb> oh i didn't even think to check :)O
[15:07] <ashb> yes, it does
[15:07] <ondras> args: an Array containing the command line arguments for the invoking arguments, not including the interpreter/engine but including the path to the program as it was executed. See also the Command Line page.
[15:07] <ondras> Wes-: you have a sec?
[15:07] <Wes-> ondras: sure
[15:08] <ondras> Wes-: first, thanks a lot - I shamelessly reused some of your iconv code today when implementing binary/b in v8cgi
[15:08] <Wes-> ondras: you're welcome!
[15:09] <ondras> Wes-: second, I believe that in transcodeBuf_toBuf, you do not close the conversion descriptor in case of success
[15:09] <Wes-> ondras: oh oh
[15:10] * ondras looking at the google code version of gpsee
[15:10] <ashb> btw - a portability issue with iconv - some versions take cosnt char*, others take only char *
[15:10] <ondras> but maybe that is outdated?
[15:10] <Wes-> ashb: We abstracted that away
[15:10] <ashb> i guess thats only a problem in c++
[15:10] <Wes-> ondras: no, google code is very close to bleeding edge
[15:11] <Wes-> ashb: No, it causes warnings in C. :) ... the solution is an inline proxy function that casts appropriately
[15:11] <ashb> ah - we did it with configure time check
[15:11] <Wes-> that works too
[15:12] <ondras> well, as for ashb's comment - the code from gpsee used const char * inbuf
[15:12] <ashb> http://github.com/ruediger/flusspferd/blob/master/libflusspferd/encodings.cpp#L258-262
[15:12] <ondras> and it did not work with my iconv
[15:12] <ondras> so I had to change to char *
[15:12] <Wes-> ondras: so you are thinking that transcodeBuf_toBuf has a code path where iconv_close(cd) is not reached?
[15:12] <ashb> ondras: yeah - same problem we hit - bsd/mac iconv gs glibc linux one
[15:13] <ashb> http://github.com/ruediger/flusspferd/blob/master/CMakeModules/FindIconv.cmake <-- our configure tests
[15:13] <ondras> Wes-: yeah - but I might be terribly wrong; this is my first encounter with iconv...
[15:13] <Wes-> ondras: take a look at ../../gpsee-iconv.[ch]
[15:14] <Wes-> my solution to char * / const char * issue
[15:14] <ondras> okay
[15:14] <ashb> no gpsee_iconv.c that i can see
[15:14] <ashb> juse a .h ?
[15:15] <ondras> Wes-: the code path is pretty strightforward - success :)
[15:15] <ondras> ashb: yeah
[15:15] <ondras> # define iconv(a,b,c,d,e) gpsee_non_susv3_iconv(a,b,c,d,e)
[15:15] <ashb> oh #if #else
[15:15] <ashb> i see
[15:15] <ondras> Wes-: http://code.google.com/p/gpsee/source/browse/modules/binary/bytethings.c#473
[15:16] <ondras> Wes-: from this line to the end of the function, there is no iconv_close
[15:16] <ondras> but perhaps there is no need to close the descriptor when transcoding finishes?
[15:16] <ashb> no you do have to
[15:16] <ashb> there might be a reset sequence you need to append
[15:17] <ashb> which you only get when you call close
[15:17] <ashb> http://github.com/ruediger/flusspferd/blob/master/test/js/encodings.t.js
[15:17] <ashb> the test_katakanaTranscoder_Chunks i think tests that
[15:17] <Wes-> ondras: I *think* you have found a bug
[15:18] <ashb> yeah - that iso2022 has JP->Ascii and Ascii->JP escape sequences
[15:18] <ondras> ashb: wow, I will be happy to try running these against v8cgi once the binary is finished
[15:18] <ashb> ondras: that is specifically for require('encodings') but yeah
[15:19] <ashb> ondras: i knew that there are some funny charsets out there, so i wanted to test it :)
[15:19] <ondras> Wes-: and one more thing - should ByteArray.prototype.splice also accept arguments #3, #4 etc to insert at removed index?
[15:19] <ondras> ashb: :)
[15:19] <Wes-> ashb / ondras: the way we're calling iconv isn't part of the generic encoding API; I dont' think there is a situation where a non-corrupt file can yield a sequence which hangs over the buffer
[15:19] <Wes-> (we don't handle that)
[15:19] <ashb> ondras: feel free to take them - MIT licensed, just put a suitable attribution at the top
[15:20] <ondras> ashb: it would be best to have these as a regular package, once the packaging system is done
[15:20] <Wes-> ondras: what does Array do?
[15:21] <ashb> Wes-: ooh interesting. (lines 369-371)
[15:21] <hdon> ondras, how did you come to find out iconv_close() wasn't being called? how did the problem manifest itself?
[15:21] <ondras> Wes-: accept :)
[15:21] <ashb> Supend/ResumeRequest
[15:21] <Wes-> ashb: what about them?
[15:21] <ashb> just never thought to do that sort of thing
[15:22] <ashb> mainly cos i dont care much about threads :D
[15:22] <Wes-> Oh. I suspend/resume around anything that can block, to let the GC have an opportunity to go
[15:22] <hdon> ashb, important for letting garbage collection take place, too. that's our main reason i think.
[15:22] <ondras> Wes-: var x = [5]; x.splice(0,1,2); x[0] == 2;
[15:22] <Wes-> ondras: If that's how Array.slice behaves, then that would be right for ByteArray.slice as well
[15:23] <ondras> hdon: well, I was not just shamelessly copying the code - I wanted to completely understand how it works
[15:23] <hdon> ashb, our heuristics for when to do it are a little fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, but i think it works nicely
[15:23] <ondras> Wes-: splice
[15:23] <Wes-> guideline for Binary/B, you should be able to implement it almost by making Array of Numbers
[15:23] <ashb> hdon: does sm have a separate GC thread still?
[15:23] <Wes-> Er, splice, lol
[15:23] <ashb> or is that just use for freeing things
[15:23] <Wes-> ashb: just for free
[15:23] <hdon> ondras, i meant no such insinuation, i was just curious if it was causing a problem
[15:23] <Wes-> ondras: what's your bug mail?
[15:24] <ondras> hdon: no offense made of course :)
[15:24] <ondras> hdon: I believe valgrind might reveal something
[15:24] <ondras> Wes-: bug mail?
[15:24] <ashb> yah - i think if you used that function to transcode to ISO2022 it would manifest itself
[15:25] <Wes-> ondras: So I can CC you on the bug report (and you take advantage of patch)
[15:25] <ondras> Wes-: okay, ondrej.zara@gmail.com
[15:26] <Wes-> ondras: Is ondrej pronounced like the french name Andre' ? (or russian Andrei?)
[15:26] <ondras> Wes-: no, it is one of the hardest words to pronounce :)
[15:27] <ondras> Wes-: because it is actually ond?ej
[15:27] <ondras> ? being the problematic letter
[15:27] <Wes-> oh, lol, reminds me of a Star Trek episode ... "What's your name" "You couldn't pronounce it"
[15:27] <Wes-> Yeah, I don't know even know what that is, lol
[15:29] <ashb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?
[15:29] <ashb> :)
[15:30] * ondras looking for some audio
[15:30] <ondras> where this gets pronounced
[15:30] <ashb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media:Cs-Antonin_Dvorak.ogg
[15:30] <ashb> i think
[15:30] <ondras> yes!
[15:30] <ondras> that is a good example
[15:31] <ondras> http://cs.forvo.com/word/ond%C5%99ej_kukal/
[15:31] <ondras> ha
[15:31] <Wes-> Oh, that's helpful, I've heard of Dvorak (and always wondered why it was spelled like that)
[15:31] <ondras> here, ond?ej is pronounced
[15:31] <ondras> (albeit a different ondrej)
[15:31] <ashb> i can't here any difference to a normal 'r' there
[15:32] <ashb> me and my foolish english-hearing-ears
[15:32] <Wes-> ondras: Actually, sounds a lot like french Andre' - especially if you have a northern Quebec accent
[15:33] <Wes-> OTOH people around here pronounce Dvorak more like Dvorzhak
[15:34] <ondras> Wes-: well, I studied french for 8 years and believe me, "r" in Andre != "?" in Ondrej
[15:34] <Wes-> although you might not be familiar with the 'zh' phoeneme
[15:34] <ondras> rzh is actually pretty close
[15:34] <ondras> english speakers use that to learn the correct sound I believe
[15:35] <ondras> http://cs.forvo.com/word/%C5%99e%C5%99icha#cs
[15:35] <ondras> this one is not bad
[15:35] <ondras> two ? in one word
[15:38] <ondras> well, time for a short Space Rangers 2 session
[15:38] <Wes-> Okay, I think I've got it. YOu can tell me if we ever meet.
[15:38] <Wes-> :)
[15:39] <ondras> Wes-: ok :)
[15:55] <ashb> anyont given any thoughts to a what a socket module would look like?
[15:55] <Wes-> ashb: A tiny bit
[15:56] <Wes-> key: socket connection code must return something compatible with fs-base openRaw
[15:56] <ashb> yup
[15:56] <ashb> i.e. a stream
[15:58] <ashb> we need to work out hwat the stream interface should look like
[15:58] <ashb> superfically it has read,write and close
[15:58] <ashb> but it gets more complex once you want to start talking about text vs binary streams etc
[16:00] <Wes-> it also must have ability to do non-blocking read
[16:00] <Wes-> and write, for that matter
[16:01] <ashb> a socket stream, yeah
[16:01] <ashb> but is that just a case of hte underlying imple throws, and you use select or similar around it?
[16:04] <Wes-> ashb: non-blocking read is critical for sockets, because we often can't completely read a buffer, and don't have the concept of lines most of the time. We would need something like isReadable() or canRead() on the stream, which might wrap select or similar
[16:05] <Wes-> with the non-blocking read/writes, we could also use a reactor to read and write (optionally)
[16:05] <Wes-> onreadystatechange
[16:48] <ashb> deanlandolt: i just found some old code of mine which uses requrest.serverName
[16:48] <ashb> so i guess it used to be that but got changed to host
[16:48] <deanlandolt> heh
[16:48] <deanlandolt> that reminds me -- i should send a message to the ML
[16:49] <hdon> ondras, Wes-, appropriate use of iconv_close() in gpsee tip
[16:53] <Dantman> Wes-, ashb: Take another look at IO/B there's a level-0 stream api... Basically an absolute lowest level api pattern. It's not specific to any one type of stream (sock stream, file stream, etc..) it's purely an api meant for those to expose which allows it to be wrapped with a real level-1 Stream object.
[16:58] <ashb> hmmm things on fs-base not expanding ~ in names is really quite annoying
[17:00] <Wes-> hdon: beauty, eh?
[17:00] * Wes- loves open source
[17:00] <Wes-> Dantman: Thanks, I'd forgotten that was not around
[17:00] <Wes-> ashb: not expanding ~ is absolutely 100% correct
[17:01] <ashb> Wes-: i dont give a damn about correctness. i care about usability
[17:01] <Wes-> ashb: It's a shell convention, not a filesystem convention
[17:01] <Wes-> ashb: then write a filename wrapper function
[17:01] <Dantman> level 0 implementations aren't supposed to be "usable"... They're supposed to give you what you need to write a level 1.
[17:01] <ashb> yeah i'm just looking for the right function to wrap
[17:01] * Wes- nods
[17:02] <Wes-> although, fs-base is pretty damn useable AFAIC
[17:02] <Wes-> of course, I come from a C background -- fs-base is very high level!
[17:02] <Dantman> ~ treatment == fs level-1 + user knowledge + home directory knowledge
[17:03] <ashb> glob(3) i think
[17:03] <ashb> (hmmm this would be much easier to use if there was FFI in hippo)
[17:07] <hdon> ashb: function w(f){function w(){for(let i=0;i<arguments.length;i++)if('string'==typeof arguments[i])arguments[i]=arguments[i].replace(/~\([A-Za-z0-9]\+\)/, '/home/&1').replace('~',getenv('HOME'));return f.apply(this,arguments)}return w}for(let k in b=require('basemodule'))if('function'==typeof b[k])exports[k]=w(b[k])
[17:08] <ashb> doesn't work for other uses of ~user or ~-/ of course
[17:08] <ashb> but yeah - that'll do
[17:08] * hdon wonders what other uses there are
[17:09] <ashb> ~-/ is $OLDPWD, so probably isn't an issue
[17:09] <ashb> i guess it juse ~otheruser/ then
[17:09] <hdon> ashb, i totally included a fake version of that! .replace(/~\([A-Za-z0-9]\+\)/, '/home/&1')
[17:09] <MisterN> $OLDPWD, didn't even know that exists
[17:10] <MisterN> hdon: not worky for ~root
[17:10] <ashb> or on a mac :(
[17:10] <hdon> Mister_X], it's totally fake
[17:10] <ashb> HOME=/Users/ash
[17:10] <hdon> totally fake!
[17:10] <hdon> you guys just don't understand that the hacker one-liner is as much a sense of humor as it is a work of art
[17:10] * hdon skittles away
[17:11] <Dantman> ^_^ If you're lazy you can probably get away with only supporting ~/ and just use the HOME and USER environment variables instead of implementing any real knowledge of paswd or whatnot... heh
[17:12] * Dantman for one has never made use of ~user/ in his life...
[17:12] <hdon> or you could run every path string through /bin/sh -c echo ...
[17:12] <Dantman> heh
[17:12] <hdon> Dantman, coming from an mswindows background?
[17:13] <Dantman> hdon, nope... I moved to Ubuntu last year... and had linux based servers before that
[17:13] * hdon grumbles about his home directory being located in /export/home
[17:13] <hdon> Dantman, i've been trying ubuntu for a while now, and i gotta say: it's pretty much as bad as windows
[17:13] <Dantman> I've just never had to use ~user, ~/ is useful, but I've never bothered with ~user
[17:14] <evilstreak> ~user is only useful if you regularly futz with multiple user accounts
[17:14] <MisterN> hdon: compared to?
[17:14] * hdon has to cd ~wes occasionally
[17:14] <hdon> MisterN, i'll probably go back to Debian. i run Debian 5 on a server somewheres
[17:14] <MisterN> lol debian lenny is painfully outdated
[17:14] <Dantman> Heh... hdon: What's your path string for me to send through the shell? Hmmm... It's "$(sudo rm -rf /)"
[17:15] <hdon> i've used red hat, slackware, gentoo, debian, and ubuntu for varying periods of time. debian was my favorite. i might give slack another go. i heard it's a bit different from whe i remember it.
[17:15] <hdon> Dantman, :O haxor!
[17:16] <Dantman> Installing Java on debian got any easier?
[17:16] <hdon> Dantman, it was pretty easy when i did it two years ago. you're talking about Sun's Java packages right?
[17:16] <Dantman> Mhmm...
[17:17] <MisterN> hdon: slackware? i last used that... i think 7 years ago. has package management become existing?
[17:17] <Dantman> It was painful back when I tried to do it.
[17:17] <hdon> Dantman, you just add a new apt software source to your sources.list and then apt-get install sun-java[56]-rte or something
[17:17] <hdon> MisterN, you know i didn't ask, cause i assumed i wouldn't like the answer. it wouldn't be slack with pkg mgmt would it? on the other hand, it is 2010... it probably has it
[17:17] * Dantman thinks he is thinking of a time before openjdk existed...
[17:18] <hdon> Dantman, i had to run Tomcat on Debian 4.0 with Sun Java 5 and it was a piece of cake
[17:18] <MisterN> hdon: why would anybody use linux without pkg mgmt? :P
[17:18] <MisterN> even red hat has it now
[17:19] <Dantman> Back when trying to Google around for "How to install Java on Debian" got you lots of posts about using fakeroots and other special packages...
[17:20] <ashb> anything but the sun JVM is lolslow
[17:20] <ashb> ubuntu certainly has it easy
[17:20] <ashb> first time you install it you get a dialog asking you to accept the license
[17:20] <ashb> then its just a normal package
[17:21] <hdon> Dantman, heh, yeah i recall seeing many articles that seemed to make it look very hard. there was one on IBM's website though and that one looked the smartest.
[17:23] <Dantman> ashb, ^_^ Though you do end up with multiple jdk's installed most of the time and end up using one of the various methods to pick which one (ie: Usually JAVA_HOME)
[17:23] <ashb> i avoid java where possible
[17:23] <Dantman> I have 3, not including the separation between jdk and jre
[17:23] <Dantman> openjdk, java-5-sun and java-6-sun
[17:23] <ashb> whats the point of openjdk? nad java-5 there?
[17:24] <ashb> i thought JVMs were backwards compatiable
[17:24] <Dantman> ashb, Installed by default, and I believe some of my packages depend on it.
[17:24] <Dantman> ^_^ openjdk creates a little /fun/ with Rhino
[17:24] <ashb> shouldn't they just depend on a JVM virual package?
[17:24] <ashb> *virtual
[17:25] <Dantman> Unless you use bootclasspath instead of classpath, it has a old rhino jar which will override your newer version.
[18:06] <Wes-> ashb: ~ is not part of glob, at least on UNIX. You need to implement it yourself, remembering to expand per (struct passwd *)->pw_dir
[18:07] <ashb> i think the bsd glob might
[18:08] <Wes-> ashb: you can use the GLOB_TILDE flag on OS-X
[18:08] <Wes-> which is BSD-derived
[18:08] <ashb> thats what i was thinking of yeah
[18:08] <ashb> and on gnu it seems
[18:09] <ashb> http://www.gnu.org/s/libc/manual/html_node/More-Flags-for-Globbing.html
[18:09] <Wes-> man page says ".....are extensions to the POSIX standard and should not be used by applications striving for strict conformance." :)
[18:09] <ashb> of course :)
[18:09] <ashb> i prefer to use them where available tho :)
[18:09] <ashb> well, except i guess in this case the fallback would work everywhere
[18:09] <ashb> apart from windows
[18:09] <Wes-> ashb: Yep, I guess what matters is how much you care about cross-platform stuff
[18:10] <ashb> 'some'
[18:10] <Wes-> we're not targetting Windows, but we're (theoretically) targetting "it works the same on all UNIX"
[18:10] <ashb> if its not the much more work to be cross platform, then i care
[18:10] <Wes-> (and Linux)
[18:10] <ashb> and of course windows is a whole other ball game that i care about sadly
[18:10] <ashb> i am targetting windows
[18:10] <ashb> but i'm not sure anyone would expect ~/foo to work there
[18:11] <Wes-> I might actually target Cygwin someday, but that's as close as I care to get
[18:11] <Wes-> ashb: I would! LOL
[18:11] <ashb> Wes-: what would you epxect it to expand to?
[18:11] <Wes-> In all seriousness, globbing to Windows will be frought with interesting problems
[18:11] <ashb> most windows things are
[18:11] <Wes-> the biggest one is that in Windows, the program expands the wild cards, instead of the shell
[18:11] <ashb> at least i'm only supporting mingwc/gcc
[18:12] <ashb> hmmm! good point
[18:12] <ashb> that measn I need to expand it when i create the system module
[18:12] <ashb> or just link against the thing that does it for you
[18:12] <Wes-> Yeah - so technically, you'd be smart to glob & re-write system arguments array before presenting to script
[18:12] * Wes- nods
[18:44] <devinus> is nodejs using the new commonjs standards?
[18:45] <ashb> devinus: i think it just has the guts of require
[18:45] <ashb> but not sure how fully it does require, and i dont think it has anything else
[18:46] <inimino> devinus: which ones?
[18:53] <Dantman> Ah great... FireBug makes Firefox crash whenever I try to open it up in my project
[18:54] <ondras> Dantman: let me guess... ff 3.5.7 on 64bit linux?
[18:54] <ondras> and firebug 1.5
[18:54] <ondras> http://blog.getfirebug.com/2010/01/19/64-bit-firefox-on-linux-crashes-with-firebug-1-5-0/
[18:54] <ondras> .)
[19:01] <Dantman> Ah
[19:03] <Dantman> :/ And those are pretty much the defaults
[19:04] <Dantman> Auto upgrade brings you to the latest FF in apt, 64bit builds are default for 64bit Ubuntu... and Firebug is upgraded to the latest version by default.
[19:05] * Dantman wonders if he should switch to the firebug in Ubuntu's api
[19:05] <Dantman> apt*
[19:50] <sh1mmer> does anyone know how up to date the list of project support on the homeapge is? are their any new projects supporting the API? or a list of more granular support for the 0.5 stuff?
[19:51] <ashb> sh1mmer: if oyu mean commonjs.org then probably not very
[19:51] <sh1mmer> I did
[19:52] <sh1mmer> the wiki is even more vague ;)
[19:52] <ashb> ofthe ones i know with most supprort flussperd, narwhall, gpsee and v8cgi
[19:53] <ashb> other ones i know about: node.js has some support, as does ejscript
[19:54] <sh1mmer> do you know if node fully supports 0.1 modules yet?
[19:54] <ashb> 0.1. we're at 1.1 now
[19:54] <ashb> and i'm not sure, no
[19:55] <sh1mmer> ok thanks :)
[19:56] <sh1mmer> I guess I meant 1.0 modules in the 0.1 spec.
[19:57] <MisterN> sh1mmer: node has almost no support for commonjs
[20:38] <inimino> sh1mmer: node pretty well supports modules
[20:39] <ashb> inimino: does it have the module free variable too?
[20:41] <inimino> ashb: yes
[20:42] <ashb> cool
[21:07] <jorgenpt> Hi :-)
[21:07] <jorgenpt> Have you approached Appcelerator about implementing the spec? (http://www.appcelerator.com/)
[21:11] <ashb> jorgenpt: no. interesting tho
[21:11] <ashb> also i sohuld point oput that commonJS is just a loose working group
[21:13] <ashb> sounds similar to 280north's Atlas
[21:13] <ashb> at least similar root idea
[21:14] <jorgenpt> Cool
[21:15] <ashb> jorgenpt: the thing that worries me about that product is that I can't work out how they make money
[21:15] <jorgenpt> Hehe, yeah.
[21:16] <jorgenpt> I'm guessing they'll have some sort of subscripiton fee for their cloud services
[21:16] <jorgenpt> subscription
[21:18] <jorgenpt> http://www.appcelerator.com/partners/
[21:18] <jorgenpt> I guess also by partnering with big firms, doing support etc
[21:19] <jorgenpt> Sadly, they don't have any kind of UI controls etc for desktop, only plain HTML
[21:20] <ashb> ah - atlas is better there
[21:20] <dmachi> the developer tool only works against their stuff, you can use the open source one, but you'd have to put it on each platform and compile individually (or setup a cross build somehow)
[21:20] <ashb> but it doesn't have mobile side
[21:20] <dmachi> but i will say its is ridiculously easy to start with titanium
[21:20] <ashb> http://280atlas.com/what.php
[21:21] <jorgenpt> dmachi: Used it for mobile stuff?
[21:21] <dmachi> just playing, nothing of significance
[21:21] <jorgenpt> I'm currently trying to do a desktop app using Python and Titanium, it's a bit rough
[21:22] <dmachi> i just used the js stuff and dojo
[21:22] <jorgenpt> Maybe it would be neat to use Cappucino with it
[21:24] <jorgenpt> Huh, never used DoJo.
[21:24] <jorgenpt> Maybe Dojo's Dijit would be good too
[21:24] <dmachi> yeah, thats what i used when playing with it
[21:25] <jorgenpt> Interesting, thanks
[21:25] <dmachi> which is good for desktop apps, but there aren't a lot of mobile specific widgets there
[21:25] <dmachi> i think titanium does have some mobile widgets though, i didn't play with them.
[21:25] <jorgenpt> Wouldn't you use the Titanium API for it?
[21:25] <jorgenpt> Yeah
[21:26] <jorgenpt> I think they have a bunch of widgets for mobile
[21:39] <tlrobinson> Atlas is built on Narwhal, btw :)
[21:39] <tlrobinson> (and Cappuccino, of course)
[21:40] <ashb> it also has an upfront way of making money :)
[21:41] <tlrobinson> that too
[21:41] <tlrobinson> titanium is cool too, it's not really similar to atlas
[21:42] <dmachi> dont' get me wrong, i'm not involved with titanium or anything, but i was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to get started
[21:42] <tlrobinson> except atlas lets you deploy desktop (and eventually mobile) applications too
[21:42] <dmachi> they also are very lax on security restrictions (at least relative to air) and i guess you can argue whether thats good or bad
[21:43] <tlrobinson> yeah. we actually considered including titanium support in atlas, but ended up going with a custom desktop app wrapper for tighter integration with cappuccino
[21:43] <tlrobinson> dmachi: yeah, i think adobe air is overly restrictive
[21:44] <dmachi> yeah, though admittedly they were kind of first (not sure they were technically first, but first big one anyway) and had to fend of security concerns.
[21:47] <ashb> tlrobinson: we dont have a list of jsgi anywhere do we?
[21:47] <ashb> http://pastie.org/790383
[21:47] <tlrobinson> list of jsgi?
[21:48] <ashb> er, middlewares
[21:48] <tlrobinson> oh, i don't know
[21:48] <tlrobinson> Jack probably has the most
[21:48] <ashb> anything like that - or did i just waste 20mins?
[21:49] <tlrobinson> nope, no vhost
[21:49] <tlrobinson> thats neat
[21:49] <ashb> cool. i should turn it into a proper package then
[21:49] <tlrobinson> btw does jack work on juice yet?
[21:49] <ashb> never had time to test
[21:49] <ashb> always seem to have some urgent need to get somthing done
[21:49] <tlrobinson> i think there might be a few narwhal dependencies
[21:50] <tlrobinson> i'd like to remove those though
[21:50] <ashb> if its just hte stuff under lib/ that shouldn't be hard
[21:50] <ashb> tbh i've come close 2 or 3 times to just bundling those with flusspferd
[21:50] <ashb> since, well they are useful
[21:51] <ashb> tlrobinson: is there some easy way i can test?
[21:51] <tlrobinson> ashb: is juice/zest using jsgi 0.2 or 0.3
[21:51] <ashb> 0.3
[21:51] <tlrobinson> ah, jack is still being upgraded to 0.3
[21:52] <ashb> ah
[21:52] <tlrobinson> i'll let you know when thats done
[21:52] <ashb> i was writing Zest when 0.3 was looking static enough to write code for
[21:52] <ashb> kk

 

 

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